Comments on: ‘Why We Can’t Build A Mega-Church On Jesus’ Leadership Model’

By: Grendel

Grendel — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:06:57 +0000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flirty_fishing

By: Grendel

Grendel — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:06:30 +0000

Actually I was thinking of the much more dangerous approach practiced by the "Children of God" cult that was known as

By: the rev

the rev — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:55:13 +0000

Yeah, Jesus also taught them to put the kingdom first, to not look for financial gain, to live in community, to not have power over each other, to be guided by the Spirit not by market forces, demographics and trends, and to be willing to give your life (both living and dying for) for your friends. I have no problem with business men using Jesus as an example, but if they do so their business will be radically different, and successful in a completely different way.

rev

By: Elaine

Elaine — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:12:51 +0000

Grendel- It was called ‘flirt to convert’. And still a currently used phrase…

By: Mark E

Mark E — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:44:12 +0000

I think he did demonstrate many practices and values the modern business world embraces…..
discipleship – mentoring
empowering leaders, responsibility matched with accountability….all these are things I see Jesus practicing.

He developed 12 leaders who would change the world.

By: the rev

the rev — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:23:17 +0000

The story of the Talents shows us what happens when we refuse to be part of the oppressive systems of economic injustice, it is a pity we have not seen the kingdom in such ways.

It is funny that Jesus “marketed” himself in a way to make people count the cost of discipleship, not to coddle them along the way. Jesus illustrated the power of the small, rather than the populist route. Jesus didn’t neglect the large, but he did not trust them as he knew they would not pass the test of discipleship. The modern structures are made on the business model, and in that their goals are pragmatic, with results as their focus. This seems to me to be counter to the life and teachings of Jesus.

I find it hard to justify the “business” model for structure and leadership when we don’t see it in Jesus, or the disciples. If it was such a good idea why didn’t he do it? Why did he intentionally tell stories that people did not understand? Why did he say things that He knew would push people away? Why did he deliberately offend the educated, the wealthy, and the spiritually elite? Why do we try to be those?

The kingdom of God requires us to turn from (repent) the kingdoms of man, not use them for our own agenda.

rev

By: Mark E

Mark E — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:56:37 +0000

So the test of a structure is that it hasn’t been used in the business world? Some of the people of this world are very smart in how they make money, what we do is far more important than that…and I think it is wise to see how they structure the resources they have wisely.

God speaks through secular art, secular music….because His image is within people, even if they dont know it….why cant He also speak through business people who are canny?
Seth Godin is a great example to me of being smart about how we go about church ‘marketing’ check out his blog, you might find it interesting.
Jesus used illustrations from the business world all the time…the vineyard owner, the master who gave out talents,

By: the rev

the rev — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:52:28 +0000

I think Rick is a very admirable man, and I am very impressed with him. I happen to know that he is actually interested in transitioning into a less hierarchical mode of church.

But again it seems like you are suggesting that whatever works best is best. This disturbs me, shouldn’t we be striving to be disciples? Regardless of whether it works well? Didn’t Jesus say, well they hated me, they are going to hate you too? Didn’t he command us to make disciples teaching them to “do all that I have commanded” And didn’t Jesus very specifically tell us to not lead the way the world leads? Wasn’t that specifically spoken by our Lord?

This is my problem with structure, our current structures make is mostly impossible to live out Jesus examples and commands. When our structure is the same as it is now, we wind up with the “baptist” thing were everyone is fighting about stupid things. Now I am not advocating “my structure” nor “my style” of leadership, but rather any number of styles that are not driven by a system that has been developed to maximize success and profit (not saying profit is the motive of all churches, it is the motive of all business).

And lastly, it is interesting that people always justify their position by one person (Rick Warren), but surely you have to admit that by and large “most” mega church pastors are living in the upper middle class zone. And most church leaderships are practicing power over their people rather than alongside of.

rev

By: Mark E

Mark E — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:58:14 +0000

Not all mega church pastors drive Bentlies….Rick Warren drives an old truck, and gives away most of his money to HIV and other worthy causes…
There are many who embarass the church with their opulent lifestyle, but that has little to do with style of church government….

An alternative to ceo model might be the old baptist model where we all get together to fight over the colour of the toilet paper, tearing each other apart with senseless meetings, and forgetting about the world outside our world going to hell. Also tearing apart the pastor and making him jump to the congregations tune.

Both of us come from our own experiences….I love the more pragmatic approach to church government because it works….we are not chasing mammon, but something far more valuable, so we should adopt business like principles if they help people come to Christ.

By: the rev

the rev — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:48:58 +0000

A minister is not the Lord of all creation, Jesus was. And yet, his ministry went more and more into I call you friends, not servants. Jesus said that even though he was the Messiah, he is among them as one who serves, that even though in the world the ones sitting at the table are important and the ones that serve are less so, he was the one serving. His act to be imitated in leadership was washing his disciples feet, in a day without toilets, and where everyone walked everwhere in sandals, he got on his knees and did what no citizen of Rome could be compelled to do.

In my mind there is no justifying the opulent lifestyles, the self centered entertainment preaching, the ruling over, the disempowering structural systems, and the elitism of the business ceo model of Christian leader. Jesus came as a lowly working class bloke from a bad neighborhood, and filled his community with working class blokes, a traitorous tax collector, and worst of all women (shock horror), I am pretty sure he didn’t travel business class. If Jesus was truly “the way” (another dogma?) then why are we seeking for a better one? When Jesus says the first will be last and the last first, why do we always insist on the best and the brightest, the stars and celebrities being our leaders?

I am sorry, I just don’t see how emulating the emperors of mammon, is the kingdom option in a world completely sold out to the pursuit of profit.

rev