Wait just a minute

I realise it may sound like playing with words (but then that’s what blogs are for) however I would distinguish between an ‘attractive’ church and an ‘attractional’ one.

I think church should always be ‘attractive’ – a beautiful community of people who woo others to Jesus by their lives.

But when I/we use ‘attractional’ it refers more to the things we do specifically to get people to come to our services. Attractional has a marketing flavour.

I am wondering what you mean by calling people out of the world, because I am guessing you don’t mean for the church and world to be separate?

I believe our challenge is to live deeply embedded in the world, but to humbly live an alternative life. Our own community ‘Upstream’ is named after that dream – to live in the flow of society, but to swim against its (negative) currents and show a better way.

I don’t think you do justice to the incarnational expression of church by suggesting it is incompatible with anabaptist thinking. No doubt we would diverge on points, but I reckon we’re pretty close!

Hamo, the think is that Jesus never preached ideals! (This is a greek way of thinking that is most unhelpful). Jesus preached the grace-filled practices that witness to God’s future (the kingdom) now. So the question for us becomes what are the practices that would help us become the body of Christ in fuller ways. That way we put our Hopes in practice.

I hear what you’re saying though about having knowledge of what you would like to be or hope to be and embracing the journey toward that, rather than only struggling with the gaps and growing frustrated.

Glenn

I agree with TSK re the Hup being a starting point, but hopefully as people move into greater discipleship, become less selfish etc they are more welcoming and appreciative of others from diverse backgrounds.

I think Yoder probably presents an ideal – a great ideal too – but as always we need to live in the tension of the ‘real’ and accept that while ideals may inspire us and motivate us they are almost universally unachieveable otherwise they wouldn’t be called ‘ideals’ )

Bergs – I reckon who we would like to be (upstream) and who we really are might be 2 diffeent things unfortunately!

Who we think we are and describe ourselves as is more the counter cultural type of community, but sometimes we are just as plain as everyone else. I’m learning to be ok with that.

Similar to Chris’s comments about reaching a homogenous subculture and then helping them move out, last week Andrew Jones responded to my question about the HUP to say that he thought evangelism should use the HUP and then worship could move into diversity. I don’t yet see how though.

In Body Politics, John Howard Yoder talks about diversity in the body as being part of baptism into a new humanity where there is no longer Jew or Greek; in Politics of Jesus, he talks about justification being the breakdown of racial emnity as Jew and Greek are reconciled in the same body. I’m convinced by both of these things, but I only wish Yoder had addressed the how of it.

I wonder if we could show the world a multi-racial, multi-aged, multi-class christian community if they would regard its existence as good news and want to join? I’d like to think so. It would rely on not being captive to any of the original cultures that people joining it came out of.

I’m basing this on your like of N.T. Wright’s work which is theologically conservative like I am (which is quite different from those who claim this title).

These fit with ‘Open Anabaptism’:
- Preferring smaller church form because of its simplicity and reproducibility
- Focus on everyday life rather than Sunday gatherings

And this reads just like anabaptist propaganda:
- Emphasis on counter-culutral living and kingdom implications