Comments on: The Other Thought For the Day http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:43:17 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Peggy http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-187546 Peggy Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:08:04 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-187546 Aah...it is always easier to see the benefits of suffering from the outside. The living of it day-to-day is, of course, a totally different story. It is understandable that those in the midst of suffering and deprivation would seek relief. It is also understandable that those with a wider perspective share it. The tension between those two points is tremendous and requires a mixture of love, grace and mercy. I loved reading "Back to Jerusalem" and the passion alive in the Church in China. I pray for them to keep their eyes on Jesus and the ear tuned to the voice of the Spirit--so that whatever their circumstances, they will know that God is in their midst and working all things together for the good. "Not our will, but yours, Father." Aah…it is always easier to see the benefits of suffering from the outside. The living of it day-to-day is, of course, a totally different story. It is understandable that those in the midst of suffering and deprivation would seek relief. It is also understandable that those with a wider perspective share it. The tension between those two points is tremendous and requires a mixture of love, grace and mercy.

I loved reading “Back to Jerusalem” and the passion alive in the Church in China. I pray for them to keep their eyes on Jesus and the ear tuned to the voice of the Spirit–so that whatever their circumstances, they will know that God is in their midst and working all things together for the good.

“Not our will, but yours, Father.”

]]> By: Random Acts of Linkage #72 : Subversive Influence http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-187393 Random Acts of Linkage #72 : Subversive Influence Sat, 09 Aug 2008 10:35:46 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-187393 [...] On the Shape of the Church in China [...] [...] On the Shape of the Church in China [...]

]]> By: Links « fresh expressions… http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-185928 Links « fresh expressions… Tue, 05 Aug 2008 13:12:24 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-185928 [...] Backyard Missionary has some thoughts on praying for the church in China. [...] [...] Backyard Missionary has some thoughts on praying for the church in China. [...]

]]> By: sojourner http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183679 sojourner Thu, 31 Jul 2008 12:49:08 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183679 I guess I'm too much into poetry and creative pros which leaves the story of people's lives open to interpretation which allows it to be applicable to the life of the reader. I read the post as a story clip into the lives of God's people in China. I read the words "Could the Westerners please pray for that?" as a simple request that didn't involve a judgement one way or the other. I liked the repetition of the reques (twice) and it spoke to me about the church in China and about my own personal faith journey. Could we all please pray for that? I guess I’m too much into poetry and creative pros which leaves the story of people’s lives open to interpretation which allows it to be applicable to the life of the reader. I read the post as a story clip into the lives of God’s people in China. I read the words “Could the Westerners please pray for that?” as a simple request that didn’t involve a judgement one way or the other. I liked the repetition of the reques (twice) and it spoke to me about the church in China and about my own personal faith journey. Could we all please pray for that?

]]> By: Alex http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183608 Alex Thu, 31 Jul 2008 08:53:18 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183608 I think the Chinese leaders' concerns are very real. I am baffled that Frost, a seminary VP, couldn't pray about the training issue - what's going on there? Hamo, could you tell me how many effective leaders in the emergent missionary church have been trained solely within local church settings of less than 15 people, with no access to larger conferences or seminaries? (Serious question, not just stirring the pot, although maybe that a little too). The Chinese Church is going gang busters, but I'm told they also have huge doctrinal issues that lead to very real pastoral problems. Remember, they are starved of Bibles and Christian training resources - it's not the West where we have a glut of the stuff and easy access on the web. I can see how trying to manage that with limited resources in a small congregations would be a real big issue. I think the Chinese leaders’ concerns are very real.

I am baffled that Frost, a seminary VP, couldn’t pray about the training issue – what’s going on there?

Hamo, could you tell me how many effective leaders in the emergent missionary church have been trained solely within local church settings of less than 15 people, with no access to larger conferences or seminaries? (Serious question, not just stirring the pot, although maybe that a little too).

The Chinese Church is going gang busters, but I’m told they also have huge doctrinal issues that lead to very real pastoral problems. Remember, they are starved of Bibles and Christian training resources – it’s not the West where we have a glut of the stuff and easy access on the web. I can see how trying to manage that with limited resources in a small congregations would be a real big issue.

]]> By: James http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183599 James Thu, 31 Jul 2008 06:25:21 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183599 Wow, good discussion! I have to be honest...on my first reading this quote (which i did before most of these comments were added) my immediate thoughts were 'right on, they got it going on in China!'. Then after reading the comments, it did dawn on me, perhaps we do need to ask if we have the right to decide what they do and don't need prayer for. Then I remembered...its not actually rare for me to have people ask to 'pray' for things I myself am not sure they need. And what do I do in these circumstances? I honour them by praying for what they ask, but in a round about way. For example, I have had teenagers ask me to 'pray for a gf' for them. Serious. Now my usual thought to this is 'that is definately not what you need'. So i usually pray that God would provide what this teenager needed to fill the 'gf' gap. God 'may' choose to respond by bringing the right person along (but prob not). This example isn't the best, but hopefully you get my point. What are the 'felt needs' the chinese are wanting prayer for? Is there a lack of leaders meaning that sometimes when they 'split' it causes serious issues? So perhaps we could pray for God to help them with the 15 person barrier (whether it be that it is lifted, or that God would help more with each split). Maybe if some churches are meeting in pubs(or other similar locations) and this is causing some people to struggle, perhaps we could pray for 'suitable' locations for meeting, rather than church buildings? It may be God would answer this providing church buildings, or a community hall. Maybe they are struggling to adequately train enough leaders to keep up with each new church, hence the desire to train larger groups. Maybe we could pray for better independent church leadership training? When someone asks me to pray for something...I may not actually pray specifically for that, I may often look for where those desires are COMING from. Or, I may pray for that, knowing God will provide what is needed that is causing that desire. Does this make any sense? Wow, good discussion!

I have to be honest…on my first reading this quote (which i did before most of these comments were added) my immediate thoughts were ‘right on, they got it going on in China!’. Then after reading the comments, it did dawn on me, perhaps we do need to ask if we have the right to decide what they do and don’t need prayer for.

Then I remembered…its not actually rare for me to have people ask to ‘pray’ for things I myself am not sure they need. And what do I do in these circumstances? I honour them by praying for what they ask, but in a round about way.

For example, I have had teenagers ask me to ‘pray for a gf’ for them. Serious. Now my usual thought to this is ‘that is definately not what you need’. So i usually pray that God would provide what this teenager needed to fill the ‘gf’ gap. God ‘may’ choose to respond by bringing the right person along (but prob not). This example isn’t the best, but hopefully you get my point.

What are the ‘felt needs’ the chinese are wanting prayer for? Is there a lack of leaders meaning that sometimes when they ’split’ it causes serious issues?

So perhaps we could pray for God to help them with the 15 person barrier (whether it be that it is lifted, or that God would help more with each split).

Maybe if some churches are meeting in pubs(or other similar locations) and this is causing some people to struggle, perhaps we could pray for ’suitable’ locations for meeting, rather than church buildings? It may be God would answer this providing church buildings, or a community hall.

Maybe they are struggling to adequately train enough leaders to keep up with each new church, hence the desire to train larger groups. Maybe we could pray for better independent church leadership training?

When someone asks me to pray for something…I may not actually pray specifically for that, I may often look for where those desires are COMING from. Or, I may pray for that, knowing God will provide what is needed that is causing that desire.

Does this make any sense?

]]> By: Peter http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183596 Peter Thu, 31 Jul 2008 05:28:39 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183596 I like the story. It is probably an illustration I'd like to use regarding the way the church has grown in China and lessons for our mission. Picks up the whole paradigm shift concept. I must admit though that I felt like Shahuv. Their comment resonated with me immediately. As I have thought about this I would express it not as paternalism but that suffering is a very delicate thing. Suffering brings maturity. I believe that and see it as taught in the scriptures. But is it right to celebrate it and seek it out, other than recognising its strange role and acknowledging God's use of it? For example; I have seen people develop maturity and depth of character and a fantastic relationship with God as they have suffered hardship or illness. I may read the scriptures and understand that it is their suffering that has shaped them. But, would I ever not join in prayer with them if they asked me to pray with them for healing, security or relief from their suffering? I like the story. It is probably an illustration I’d like to use regarding the way the church has grown in China and lessons for our mission. Picks up the whole paradigm shift concept.

I must admit though that I felt like Shahuv. Their comment resonated with me immediately.

As I have thought about this I would express it not as paternalism but that suffering is a very delicate thing.

Suffering brings maturity. I believe that and see it as taught in the scriptures. But is it right to celebrate it and seek it out, other than recognising its strange role and acknowledging God’s use of it?

For example; I have seen people develop maturity and depth of character and a fantastic relationship with God as they have suffered hardship or illness. I may read the scriptures and understand that it is their suffering that has shaped them. But, would I ever not join in prayer with them if they asked me to pray with them for healing, security or relief from their suffering?

]]> By: Hamo http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183593 Hamo Thu, 31 Jul 2008 04:51:49 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183593 Shavuv - perhaps there is a vibe of 'I know something you don't', but maybe that is also true. I don't think his remarks were at all condescending. I think they were more said in fear that the chinese church would be domesticated. If we know something isn't loving to share it?... Shavuv – perhaps there is a vibe of ‘I know something you don’t', but maybe that is also true.

I don’t think his remarks were at all condescending. I think they were more said in fear that the chinese church would be domesticated.

If we know something isn’t loving to share it?…

]]> By: Daniel http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183535 Daniel Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:51:47 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183535 I a Chinese house church leader one day comment "Westerners always tell me that they are praying for the persecution of the church in China to stop. I tell them - do not pray for that. If the persecution stops we will stop growing". I think it Brother Yun wrote that. I a Chinese house church leader one day comment “Westerners always tell me that they are praying for the persecution of the church in China to stop. I tell them – do not pray for that. If the persecution stops we will stop growing”.

I think it Brother Yun wrote that.

]]> By: Geoff Matheson http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html/comment-page-1#comment-183533 Geoff Matheson Thu, 31 Jul 2008 03:37:18 +0000 http://www.backyardmissionary.com/2008/07/the-other-thought-for-the-day.html#comment-183533 I'm amazed that this quote would be generating such a negative reaction. Shahuv, I take what you're saying, and there is absolutely a danger in that paternalistic mindset, but I actually think that Mike is recognising that these requests are absolutely a legacy of past (and probably ongoing) Western colonialised thinking (yep - pretty sure colonialised isn't a word). So I think that as a part of the western church who has told these churches that these institutions are what they need, I think it's actually a reaction against the paternalistic mindset that Frost is expressing here. Either way, I like the story Hamo! I’m amazed that this quote would be generating such a negative reaction. Shahuv, I take what you’re saying, and there is absolutely a danger in that paternalistic mindset, but I actually think that Mike is recognising that these requests are absolutely a legacy of past (and probably ongoing) Western colonialised thinking (yep – pretty sure colonialised isn’t a word). So I think that as a part of the western church who has told these churches that these institutions are what they need, I think it’s actually a reaction against the paternalistic mindset that Frost is expressing here.

Either way, I like the story Hamo!

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